FILE PHOTO - Mayor Reid Hamer-Jackson (left) and Coun. Bill Sarai (right) at a Kamloops city council meeting.

(LEVI LANDRY / iNFOnews.ca)

CONTENT ADVISORY

The mayor of Kamloops still wants to clear his name from the first code of conduct investigation implicating him in bullying at city hall.

Mayor Reid Hamer-Jackson's way through the multiple council decisions rebuking his behaviour and measures against him isn't clear, but he plans to use what he said might be new evidence to help his case: the audio recording of an argument between himself and another councillor nearly two years ago.

It was a January 2023 spat between Hamer-Jackson and councillor Bill Sarai that led to the Integrity Group investigation, which led to restrictions on the mayor's interactions with multiple staff members, including city manager David Trawin. Unbeknownst to Hamer-Jackson, the exchange was recorded.

"What's that got to do with sparking an investigation into me?" he said, going on to question why Sarai wasn't also implicated.

Sarai sent the recording to Hamer-Jackson in late September, the mayor said. Sarai initially claimed it was sent to him by someone else, but it later became apparent the audio was Sarai's own recording, later verified independently by iNFOnews.ca. It captures just 45 seconds of their argument.

It's the second known incident of a secretly recorded conversation among city officials. The first was a phone conversation between Trawin and the mayor, which Hamer-Jackson said his wife recorded. Nearly six months later, Hamer-Jackson attempted to have the transcript read aloud in a council meeting.

In September 2023, that recording prompted an internal investigation, a new policy restricting councillors from recording conversations and Hamer-Jackson was rebuked by council.

Sarai's recording of the mayor earlier that same year has prompted no such investigation or concern from other councillors.

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Asked whether he intends on filing a code of conduct complaint, Hamer-Jackson wouldn't say, but he did criticize previous code of conduct investigations as being rigged against him.

"They hire a lawyer to get the results they want," he said, repeating a common refrain he uses when questioning their legitimacy.

Asked whether they are concerned about Sarai's secret recording, councillors Kelly Hall, Nancy Bepple and Margot Middleton did not respond. Councillors Katie Neustaeter and Sarai refused to comment.

Councillor Stephen Karpuk did not say whether he has concerns about the recording. Instead, he said the council policy that prohibits council members from making secret recordings did not exist at the time of the argument between Sarai and the mayor.

Deputy mayor for the month, Mike O'Reilly, similarly said the policy now has everyone "playing by the same rules," but that it came into place later. He also said he had "no idea" where the recording came from and only learned about it through media reporting last week. No investigation was on the table and there were no formal complaints as of Oct. 19, O'Reilly said. 

Councillor Dale Bass was the only one who answered the question directly, comparing Sarai's recording to Hamer-Jackson's recorded phone call with Trawin.

"This was a conversation between supposed friends and it got heated," she said. "Whereas the other thing was city work. And the other point I would include was everyone at city hall heard the fight, but David (Trawin) had no idea that there was another person in the car listening in."

She said the recording of Trawin might have included confidential information while in the presence of the mayor's wife, but he wouldn't have known while on the phone.

"So the circumstances are completely different," she said.

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Bass said she didn't know whether the conversation between Sarai and Hamer-Jackson, two men who have been friends since before this term, falls under the human resources policy, instead pointing to staff to have that answer.

"That would have to be assessed through (human resources) because it's a new policy," she said. "Was that a conversation between two co-workers, colleagues and friends about an issue between the two of them only, or did it have an impact on city work because it then traumatized other people in city hall?"

The recording captures part of a conversation between Hamer-Jackson and Sarai in the mayor's office. According to Hamer-Jackson, Sarai wanted an apology because the mayor called him a "snake" in reaction to an incident the month before. He didn't get the apology. The details leading to the exchange were previously reported by iNFOnews.ca this spring.

The 45-second clip is not related to a demand for an apology and instead starts with Sarai taking issue with last-minute requests for councillors to appear at public events on the mayor's behalf. Hamer-Jackson played the recording for iNFOnews.ca, which he claims was selectively edited to reflect poorly on him.

"You can't throw things out and then expect us to catch your rebound. If you don't want to go to things, that's fine. Just give us a heads up and we'll cover for you," Sarai says in the recording.

"You know what your problem is, Bill?" Hamer-Jackson responds. "You don't fucking listen."

At this, Sarai returns to the "snake" insult and asks if the mayor will address it, then, as the exchange sounds like it will get more heated, the recording ends.

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According to the internal investigation that followed, Hamer-Jackson left the office to apologize to staff for Sarai's behaviour. A city employee responded to say there were two people involved in the argument. Some had considered calling 9-1-1 and others looked for Sarai to check on his well-being after the incident.

While the investigation found no staff members were directly affected or at risk, it prompted council to stop all one-on-one meetings with the mayor and administration and to contract the Integrity Group after finding the mayor to be at the centre of arguments with several people less than three months into his term. During the argument with Sarai, Hamer-Jackson was also considered to be the aggressor in the Integrity Group investigation and he appears to be the aggressor in the recording.

It's not clear whether a longer recording of the argument exists or whether human resources knew of it. Hamer-Jackson has asked but received no answers.

He did make a report to Kamloops RCMP upon Sarai's denial that he recorded the argument. Hamer-Jackson said Sarai's denial that he had recorded it led him to report a suspected hidden recording device within his own office. Police later dismissed the complaint and Hamer-Jackson said Sarai must have told police "the truth."

iNFOnews.ca has not received a call back from the city's human resources director Colleen Quigley nor city manager Byron McCorkell.

The bullying and harassment investigation contracted to The Integrity Group, one that he refused to take part in, would be the first report finding the mayor breached code of conduct policies with at least three employees. Initially leaked to Kamloops This Week last summer, the mayor himself would later release it in an effort to clear his name. A recent investigation following his release of that report found he not only breached the city's own conduct policies, but he also breached the Community Charter.

How he plans to use the report to clear up investigations into his behaviour still isn't clear, but he said the only "sensitive information" inside scathing report are "lies" by staff.

"I would say it's on its way," he said when asked if he has redeemed his reputation through the leaked report.

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